Copeland Rules Part 3
The final piece of BACKAYARD’s interview with one of the historians of Jamaican music: Mr Copeland Forbes
Who is on your current artiste roster?
You know something, I am kinda stepping out of that era. When dem pass on, mi nuh bodda replace di numbers dem. Yuh haffi leave space for others to grow and as much as I get call from groups up to last night. That is why I have to have an answering machine, I haven’t answered my phone in the last 20 years, because I get call from people all the while. “Yo, wi jus mash up a show inna Clarendon.” So I asked dem what dem group name. “Death and Destruction”, mi seh “Wah?”… (Everybody Laughs)…… So dem hol’ up mi time, yuh nuh, so I leave the management ting now to young and upcoming managers. What I am doing now are PowerPoint presentations around the world. I go to Australia every year in November and I do four lectures. The PowerPoint presentation normally last 60 minutes or 90 minutes, the lectures are around universities or music seminars and ting. It is easy for mi because is supp’im I enjoy, I enjoy speaking to a lot of people who don’t know that part of the business. When yuh tell dem yuh experience wid the music and where it started and up to the present. So I do most of that and I kinda pick special projects that I work wid. Like every year some promoters from Europe come because Europe is now one of the biggest markets for reggae now, live shows. So a lot of the promoters come down here, November-December. Dem rent all house and stay here, right and watch all di shows dem, to see which acts dem want. So dem would link mi when dem come and most of the time is me and Lloydie guh down there and we sit down and dem tell wi which artiste dem want for dem festival and so on and then we coordinate it. Years gone by, I used to get up every year and jus do a tour but I realise it wasn’t benefiting me. Artiste dem guh home and dem pocket fulla money, yes and me siddung now. Bus fi pay, hotel fi pay, airfare fi pay and mi nuh know weh it a come from. I remember one time it did reach a point that mi never waan wake up the next morning mi did beg god to mek mi keep sleeping and mi can sleep past the suppliers who a wait fi get pay. So mi nuh tek up nuh new artiste inna management, I will give lectures and I will guide them. When Morgan Heritage came down from the States yuh nuh, right yahso dem come siddung looking for management. But one ting wid me is that if I am not going to give 100% of me, I not going to tek it up.
Even if it a pay one million dollar but at the time Luciano career jus did a start out and Fattis was depending on me to do a lot of the tings dem. Most of my work was put into Luciano career all the tours and ting yuh see round di world is me doing it. I didn’t want to take up another group and caan give dem my full attention. But Morgan Heritage, mi call dem my royal family is me gi dem dah name deh yuh nuh. Mi and Una will stay in touch and mi guide dem, look bout some a dem work permits and set dem up on their first European tour, organize it for dem and so on and Andrea Davis went out with dem on the road. I remember one time, they had a gap of 7 days before the next show and mi seh how unnu a guh manage. Dem seh dem a guh suddung, pay dem staff because di show dem after that was very important, some festivals and they wanted to do it and get the exposure. And it paid off, yuh nuh, they are one of the biggest groups now on the road out there now that they have reunited as a family.
How many countries have you been to around the world?
A better yuh seh how much I have not been to. Di only place dem mi nuh guh yet is Afghanistan and Iran, yuh nuh. I have been to most of the countries: Greece, Israel, Africa, my god you name it mi guh all over di place, Brazil, di whole a South America…
The reason why I asked that was to follow up with where you thought had the best response for Jamaican music?
Every region have its specific demands, yuh see Brazil. Brazil gravitate to our music but guess which artiste, dancehall artiste dem no way, di older artiste dem. Eric Donaldson is like god down there, Max Romero, Barbara Jones, Jimmie London, these are names that people gravitate to down deh. Brazil is that kinda market, I couldn’t understand that. Australia is di same kinda ting. Yuh see Europe now, what is happening in Europe now is that the tides have changed. In terms of is young audience going to the shows now. The Protojes and the Chronixx and the Kabaka Pyramid and all those people is what that generation coming out now to see. I am in touch with almost all di major promoters and when yuh call some of the big name artiste dem from way back, is few areas dem can guh now. That will still cater because you have to understand, artiste from 30 years ago a tour fi 30 years that audience deh home now wid grandchildren. Di young ones dem now di 16, 17 and 18 year old dem going. One of the artistes that pull young, old, cripple and everything is Toots. When yuh guh to a Toots concert, yuh see teenage kids a jump like crazy and yuh wonder and seh but wait this man a come from di ska era so him have everybody. What happen is that he has a large college following because him play di college circuit throughout his career. So you have a lot di college kids come out to his concert and grownups as well. Burning Spear will pull any crowd as well but him come of di road now him kinda semi-retired. Yuh haffi tek crowbar fi get him out now. Mi a tell yuh, people come to mi wid some major offers and him seh him a relax himself. The last show he did was Nine Miles show for di Marleys dem in Miami five years ago and mi see man come wid big offers fi him and mi call, nope. You have to realise that it is not the money him jus waan tek a break and relax, mi nuh know when him a come out back. But money caan pull him out it have to be something else. But when Burning Spear out there trust mi. Burning Spear is one of di biggest draw, mark yuh, yuh see him so roots and everything but him have a lot of white followers. He used to tour 10 months a year, yuh nuh, just like Yellowman out deh now. Yellowman don’t even have to have one hit and him still tour every year, there is a demand for him. The Caribbean is a dancehall market, di hol’ of di Caribbean is dancehall. Is only like Barbados, like man like Ernie Smith. For some reason Barbados have a kinda English population which would get into some of the older artistes but rest of di Caribbean is definitely dancehall.
What I have seen in Africa, years ago roots artistes were di only ones who could create a demand there. I have taken T.O.K down there and I thought I was traveling with the Jackson 5, I couldn’t believe it when I see. I mean fifteen security we had to have round dem because people jus a hawk dem up so. Then I realise a lot of di dancehall music seeping through because the generation change down there to who is coming to concert. So you have people like Chronixx who is well known down there, Christopher Martin, Alaine, you would be surprised, even Cecile, Jah Cure, Beenie Man, Elephant Man, Jah Vinci alot of the dancehall acts dem. I get call for all these people, yuh nuh, and you would be surprised. One man is always in demand down there though is Capelton. Capelton and Sizzla, will always be in demand down there, the young generation will still go after them because you have di generation of the dancehall ones and you have di cultural one dem who just into that, you know what I mean. But is the young generation coming out to the live shows dem and a lot of the elder artiste dem can barely get one or two show. When dem get dem, dem put on good shows. Right now in England, we have a package wid Beres and Bunny Wailer playing di O2 circuit. Which is a good ting, people will go out and see that. So every area have its certain market and it is good because everybody can eat a food, so to speak. If you put on a show inna Jamaica wid a Jimmie London or one dem man deh, nobody nah guh come. But dem man deh in Brazil is big. When Eric Donaldson land is police out riders haffi carry him from di airport to him hotel and that is Eric Donaldson Mr. Cherry O Baby. Gregory! Lawd Jesus, Gregory is di king down inna Brazil. Him and Dennis Brown did rule Brazil. Even before Dennis pass that was the last place him play.
How do you see Jamaican music getting back what it has lost in terms of respect around the world?
I don’t think there is no going back yuh nuh everything would be moving forward with changes. Because we live in a technological world which has changed the whole thing. Most people now is doing a lot tings via internet now. Yuh can voice tune, yuh nuh haffi guh over suh fi voice a dub plate yuh can stay yah and do it and send it over. So what has happen technology has played a great role in a whole part of the entertainment industry. Everybody can get tune download tune so people have to be earning from live concerts. That is where the livelihood is coming from now, yuh know what I mean. That is always why I encourage artiste to develop a good presentation on stage. People don’t come to a concert to hear yuh sing back di song dem. Some man jus sing then put on a next song then sing again. Somebody could jus buy di record and listen to it. Dem want to see a performance and to be entertained, yuh nuh. That is why mi always try fi encourage di artiste dem fi stop guh overseas and jus pick up any likkle band and play wid dem. Because when you do that you are not developing an act you are just singing. You water down your own act. I see some big name artiste now a do that. That is why mi haffi give Chronixx props nuh matter what. Me know him will tek almost nutten fi him pay jus fi mek sure him band out deh wid him. Because him and di band have a presentation to mek him not jus out deh to sing some song. When yuh guh deh fi jus sing some song, yeah yuh can just pick up any man because yuh can rehearse one day wid a man and di next day is di show.
This was the same thing that Dean Fraser mentioned a couple years ago in an interview with us. He actually named Chronixx and Protoje as the newer acts that try to emphasis touring with a band. He was saying that in the ’90s some acts went and just pick up shows without a lot support people….
And you see what happen is that once one big name act do it yuh nuh. When dem call yuh dem seh “But John Brown do it so whappen to you”, and you start to think about your money, yuh nuh. Your personal money cause you a seh rhatid bwoy di man a gimme $10,000 to come up deh and work wid a band.
I think one of the reasons why it could have been done with Chroniixx. At the time when he came out. He probably didn’t have the overheads like some other acts. He just came out and said from the start that he is not performing anywhere without his band.
Right he established it that way.
So even when lost shows initially, I believe even Shaggy said it in a interview that Chronixx taught him something. Because he didn’t know he could go to those people and say he not going anywhere without Zincfence.
Mi hear a certain big name artiste weh yuh call legend, me hear this come outta him mouth. “Well right now if me hear two pan a knock behind me then is alright.” When me hear di man talk dah way deh mi seh blouse and skirt a dehso fi him head deh. All him a concentrate pon is him, di money weh him a guh get but him nah realise seh fi di lust for this money yuh a kill di supp’im. There is no future now because a next man hear a man a talk bout band dem a guh seh John Brown do it wid out band so you mus can do it.
You kill the industry that way. So now you have the younger acts that make be known that they want to perform with their bands and start up a nice little cycle again that every new act wants to have their own band.
You leave from here with a band because you develop a presentation and an act to present. I remember when Tarrus guh out on him first tour to rhatid, Tarrus never know how much money him a guh mek. Him just tell Dean put a band together and dem went out on tour. When him pay off di band and pay everything, wah lef him jus put inna him pocket and seh him a build supp’im. But most artiste “Mi waan mek sure mi get mine”. You hear artiste say “A mine mi a defend a now, mi a defend me”. Like him feel di band, di engineer and di crew nuh play an important role inna him being on stage and performing. It tek a teamwork.
Because if him don’t sound good nobody will book him
Exactly when me did out deh wid di Wailers, mi see Bob look pon man, yuh nuh and seh “Tek care of my band and my crew. Me and you will talk after di show becah a my name deh pon di board and if anything guh wrong a me dem a guh seh a di problem.” And a so dem do it.
Well it is good that these young acts have that kinda mindset. Also with modern technology, Instagram, Youtube, fans can see the result of teamwork.
Exactly, because is teamwork do it yuh nuh. Yuh have a team, yuh have yuh road manger, yuh have yuh publicist, yuh have yuh lawyer, yuh work as a team. But when a man feel him can do everything, “Yes promoter get me a band and is alright mi will come up deh and work wid it”, and that “Is alright as long as mi hear some noise a knock behind mi is alright because a mew di people dem come fi see”. When mi hear that kinda talk mi haffi seh bwoy.
What kind of projects you have moving forward?
Well di next movement we have is going with a package wid Charlie Chaplin, Josey Wales and Brigadier Jerry with Loyd Parkes band and we going into Europe to do some festivals. Geel festival, Reggae Sun Ska, Rototom in Spain yuh nuh. One whole week of that festival, we have been there couple times so is something we look forward to.
Photos by Jik Rueben
Video by THE PHVRVOH
About Author
